Much like God himself, over the next 6 days you’ll get to remake Wallingford through your will alone. For the first 5 days I’ll list out the 5 Wallingford Park and Street Fund projects that have been proposed, and in the comments you can do Q&A with people that proposed the projects. On the sixth day you’ll get to vote for your preferred projects.
Your comments and voting are important, as neighborhood organizations are looking to this blog to help them decide on project rankings. Unlike other funds that are allocated by politicians, the Park and Street Fund is decided by neighborhood groups like the Wallingford Community Council and Wallingford Chamber. SDOT or Parks will study the top 3 or so projects, and then the top 1 or 2 will get funded (depending on cost and feasibility).
SO, without further ado, here is project #1: Preventing Tangletown Cut Throughs Between Green Lake Way and I-5. In a gross conflict of interest, I was the one that submitted this proposal:
The Problem: Cut Through Traffic from Green Lake Way onto I-5
The Fix: Add a Barrier That Blocks the 5th Ave NE Cut Through
Is what inspired this proposal was being picked up in a cab and having the cab drive me through the neighborhood on this exact route, with the driver happily telling me about how this great cut through allowed him to skip all the lights and get straight onto I-5. To check if it wasn’t an aberration, I followed a couple of the fastest drivers cutting through in the morning, and this was the route they were following.
Caveats, and there are a few. This won’t fix Tangletown cut throughs that are motivated by cars wanting to go from North to South, or that are heading West on 50th and want to bypass the Green Lake Way intersection. It also won’t fix the Green Lake Way intersection itself, or the throughput impacts that happened when the road diet went in. Those issues must be dealt with as part of another project. Also, I have not reached out to people that live near where the barriers would be installed- I’m hoping they’d be happy as it would drastically cut down on traffic in front of their houses while still allowing them access. SDOT will be checking in with people when they do their studies, or of course comments here are welcome.
Well, that’s it for project proposal #1. Comments pro, con, or indifferent are all welcome. Thanks!
I wonder what google recommends? Where does their journey originate? I have found google directs people through neighborhoods instead of arterials.
A couple of things:
First, it appears that the Green Lake Way road diet is being blamed for increased Tangletown cut-throughs. Is there any evidence to this? Because I’m dubious. I’m guessing the main culprit is avoidance of the 50th/Green Lake Way intersection.
Second, what will prevent eastbound drivers from instead now cutting through to Latona, and how will this impact the traffic on Latona and potential backups at the 50th Street traffic signal?
Finally, if you’re reading this SDOT: WE NEED BETTER EAST/WEST PUBLIC TRANSIT THROUGH WALLINGFORD!!!
If I understand the reasoning here, I think this proposal sucks. Forcing all Tangletown traffic (that includes me, because I live here and sometimes want to get on the freeway) to shuffle through at Latona and 50th will create massive congestion. I don’t understand how people are “cutting ahead in line.” Who is cutting ahead in what line?
And to follow up on my (and Greg’s) points: How will this impact the reliability of the #26 bus? The traffic signal on Latona at 50th is already a pretty quick one. If southbound Latona turns into a high traffic corridor, will the bus be waiting for 3 or 4 signal cycles to make the zig-zag down Thackeray?
As a Tangletown resident who lives on the slope between Latona and I-5, I resent you calling it a “cheat” for me to continue down the hill to 5th and get on I-5 south or north without queuing up on 50th with all the Fremont and Ballard people. I live RIGHT HERE, why should I have to turn my car around and make two left turns to get on the road I can hear from my house?
I am not bothered by “cheaters” blowing through Tangletown. I think these proposed barriers are a solution for a problem that doesn’t exist.
Also, a classic example of Seattle nanny-state “rule enforcer” mentality. Live and let live.
The road diet sucked and continues to suck. We need as many ways to avoid backed up arterials as possible and cutting through Tangletown and other areas is the only way to go sometimes so I would definitely vote “thumbs down” on this proposal. Greenways have speed bumps on them which prevent speeding without any concrete barriers, so maybe that’s a way to go? Tangletown isn’t a gated neighborhood and the streets belong to everyone (until the authorities decide to take away all the parking, shut them down and turn them into pedestrian corridors…).
Thanks Greg, let me try to explain. People from Ballard and Phinney are supposed to be taking 50th East bound to get to I-5 and the U-District. Many people are instead taking 51st, 53rd, and 55th to get to I-5, as shown in the top picture. This puts them in front of the traffic on 50th East bound that is waiting to get on the freeway, effectively cutting to the front of the line of metered freeway entrance traffic. This makes the backup on 50th much worse, pushing yet more people onto side streets.
It’s gotten so bad that in the mornings that people regularly come from Green Lake Way SW of the 50th street intersection, avoid the right turn on 50th, then turn right on 51st instead and then cut clean through the neighborhood that way. In other words, they are taking a detour in order to use 51st for cutting through.
I don’t think this will make traffic worse or better overall since the choke point is getting onto I-5 or across the bridge and into the U-District. Since this design doesn’t change the choke point, it won’t change the throughput. This change will simply channel the through traffic back to where it belongs- on 50th. If you are personally using the 5th Ave pathway to get to I-5 and don’t care about cut throughs or traffic in that area, then this fix is not for you.
I feel like this particular “solution” only addresses the need to reduce “cut throughs” and totally ignores the needs of the residents of the neighborhood. And to blindly constrict the flow at 5th and 50th in this way is a bit beyond the pale for my purposes. Lots of us long time residents who work downtown use this route. Your solution would bar me from a perfectly reasonably route to work.
I would be really bummed if this suggestion was enacted.
I agree with Doug’s capital letters, WE NEED BETTER EAST/WEST TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS.
While I’m at it: And we need a lot less Dufus like gargantuan modern buildings being permitted in the name of density as opposed to what it is really for: a thinly disguised way of generating more money for property taxes and “wind falls” for the developers. Stupid, unfair LUPA laws! Sorry, I got ranting and it felt good….
I agree with a lot of the comments that don’t like this proposal….and, I’m selfish because I don’t want more traffic in Tangletown or in Wallingword…of course even STOPPED/PARKED traffic is now a problem because a lot of the new buildings aren’t providing any parking space, or not enough.
On another post someone said Wallyhood has the best blog….it’s ok, but the outstandingly best blog is the West Seattle one….I’m so impressed with their coverage not only of West Seattle but of all of Seattle and our State and on and on….in fact I now read it everyday thanks to their wonderful coverage of the protest at the Port of Seattle against Shell Oil…..which by the way affects ALL of our neighborhoods not to mention the earth
No on this proposal. The reason people cut through is because the traffic is so bad on 50th. It’s become more efficient for people to navigate the side streets than sit on 50th. I don’t think funneling all the traffic to 50th solves anything except less traffic on the side streets, but it does make it harder for residents to access the freeway. I’m not in favor of making that trade off.
My reading of the feedback so far is that people are happy to have 51st through 55th turn into arterials like 50th provided they can continue to have easy I-5 access themselves. That is surprising to me and contrary to what I have heard in chatting with people at Seattle Night out and other times.
However, the feedback here will decide things- if people don’t reply on this thread saying they want cut throughs reduced, then the traffic pattern shown in the top slide will remain and get far worse in time. All people in Tangletown will have a stream of high speed traffic going by their front doors, and it will be all day long. There is no plan B- East West transit is years away, coming to 45th and not 50th, and density is coming whether you like it or not. The question is whether 51st through 55th turn into arterials or not.
I think the biggest issue is that the 50th/Greenlake intersection is so terrible. This is, of course, because it’s a busy 5-way junction. 46th/Greenlake/Aurora is also not particularly good, for the same reason.
Let’s close the section of Greenlake between 50th & 46th, and have people travel along the street-grid. This will immensely improve the performance of both of those intersections, and avoid funneling everyone onto one street to get to/from Aurora. Practically no buildings have entrances/exits from that road. We can turn the road into a linear extension of Woodlawn park, or find something else interesting to do with the space. Yes, we can even keep some of it as a parking lot, if we absolutely must.
I think this would solve an awful lot of the issues surrounding traffic in that neighborhood, and make it a lot easier to improve the pedestrian/bicycle experience there, too.
A solution in search of a problem that becomes a problem.
Last year, I left Tangletown 90 minutes before the start of a show at the Seattle Center, on a Wednesday, good weather. I got there just as the curtain was going up; yes, it took all ninety minutes. And that’s not unusual anymore.
When one part of the grid (Southbound 99) fails, traffic moves to the next part (Fremont) and failure there goes to Westlake (fail) and Dexter (one mph). I missed 15th NE and Queen Anne, but I understand that was full as well. Each part fails because of the limited capacity that we have concreted into place. It was perfect gridlock, and happens more and more.
There may or may not be more cars; I think there are fewer choices for those cars to flow into.
Oh, I forgot, cars are the enemy. Sorry, us old people should drop dead and give you our teardown homes on doublelots now. But how will your UBER get to you? Or your Amazon delivery vehicle? Or the fire truck?
Ed’s right about the money, but I’ll go one farther: income tax isn’t dependent on churning the economy to maintain our city.
Eric @11: I don’t know if people here “are happy to have 51st thru 55th turn into arterials”. I think some are just wondering if your proposed solution is the best.
If the problem is that cars “race through the neighborhood”, have you investigated traffic calming? I live on Thackeray, south of 45th, and my former neighbor (hi, Nancy!) worked long and hard in working to implement traffic-calming measures on our street.
Thackeray has the same issue: People use it as an arterial to get from I-5 to Fremont or 99 or wherever. There still are plenty of cars, but with the traffic-calming measures, at least people (usually) drive slowly.
I do think it’s great that you’re working for a solution. Too many people just complain about their neighborhood and don’t actually work to improve it. Good job!
Let me take a moment to debunk alternative fixes here.
#1: There are clearly more cars, and there will be more in time as well. I-5 is the same as it was 10 years ago, but traffic is obviously much worse on it. Traffic is going to get worse still, please accept that.
#2: Transit does not fix traffic, in fact it requires it. NYC, with some of the best transit anywhere, suffers from near continuous gridlock. The only cities that “solve” traffic are ones that actively restrict car use, like Singapore (license lottery) and London (congestion pricing). Transit is an alternative that is used when traffic is terrible, so it’s a good “relief valve” for terrible traffic, but it only works if people are pushed out of their cars, and that only happens if there’s terrible traffic (or limits on car use).
#3: It is not possible to change the grid at this point by doing things like closing GLW SW of 50th, because a huge change like that has huge impacts. The trafffic that uses that path now will be going somewhere else, and those people will be outraged, probably Phinney in that particular situation, since everyone taking 50th to Ballad would need to start cutting through side streets off of Phinney.
#4: Traffic calming has already happened. There’s already traffic circles throughout Tangletown. Speed bumps require SDOT to say people are speeding in excess of 25 MPH, and that’s not what’s happening. People are very happy to go 25 MPH all day as 50th is stop and go.
Please accept this truth- traffic is going to maximize itself and flow down the path of least resistance. The way the roads work now, that pathway is through Tangletown, and it’s going to get worse and worse as Waze and apps like that direct users to take 51st or 53rd or 55th because they are faster than taking 50th. Not only that, but each car going down 51st through 55th is making 50th worse still by clogging the choke point at I-5 and 50th. The only fix to Tangletown cut throughs is to make them unappealing relative to staying on arterials, and that requires eliminating the cut through pathway.
Wait, am I understanding correctly that we will no longer be able to get onto I-5 from 5th, crossing 50th? We’ll have to go up to Latona instead?
Accept the truth? Please.
This solution is worse than the problem.
For a couple of cars coming through, you are looking at restricting turns? How big is this problem? An Uber driver a day? Or dare I say, someone like myself or any other readers of this blog?
Cars speeding on 51st, 53rd, and 54th? Is that a fact or is it perception? It is my understanding that the city will allow you to have a radar gun to test this. Given the fact that all of those streets are narrow, essentially one way given parked cars, I cannot conceive that cars are moving much more than 25 mph on there.
Traffic is worse on I-5 in the past 10 years? Have you looked at the counts? It literally cannot have grown significantly because it has been at effective capacity 10 years ago, and it is at effective capacity now.
Cut through traffic is a reality. The narrow streets actually control it quite effectively when combined with traffic circles. There is an absolute limit on how much can get through and how fast ig can go.
Everyone in Wallingford deals with it. You live in a city. I suggest you deal with it as well, instead of trying to restrict things that simply makes things worse.
I don’t have the skills or knowledge to express an option on whether this proposal will achieve the desired results or what other consequences will be. I suspect most other commenters are just as unqualified as I am.
As a Wallingford resident I can express an opinion of our values therefore I do support the intent of this proposal. People going to and from the freeway should be on arterials. Cars should only travel on neighborhood streets for the first and last few blocks of a journey. This frees the streets for all sorts of other of higher quality of life uses such being a pleasant walkway, a gardens and a playground. Spending some extra time on our arterials when we choose to travel by car is a price worth paying for such things.
Loic: correct, that’s the idea.
Thomas: Well, I’m looking out my window and seeing a stream of cars going by right now. About one car every 5 seconds or so right now, during rush it’s a lot more. Often they honk at each other to get out of the way. They aren’t speeding I don’t think- it looks like about 20 miles per hour to me. This was all definitely not the case 5 years ago. Maybe you are not on the cut through pathway. I’m on 51st, where are you?
As for I-5 getting worse, that’s very well documented:
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/regionrsquos-commute-times-worsen/
Clearly people finding this blog entry aren’t worried about cut through traffic, that’s the overwhelming response here. That’s surprising to me, as during Seattle night out that was the main complaint in Tangletown. So, something is skewed in the responses.
Sorry, Eric, I can see this vexes you, but it really is a non-issue. If you really want to choke off the through traffic, choke it off at the G-Lake Way end – prohibit left turns, or all turns or whatever.
Picture this: when your solution is implemented, all of these imaginary throngs of people will still “cut through” Tangletown, but will turn on Latona to get to 50th. Or, they will go to 5th and go straight through the 50th intersection to cut down to the 45th on-ramp. It would still save time over sitting on 50th, wouldn’t it?
Putting a barrier across a legitimate route to the I-5 entrance and the U-District is ludicrous. Perhaps people from the west are “supposed to use 50th.” That doesn’t mean people from the north also need to funnel onto 50th. 5th avenue is a legitimate route to enter that intersection.
Your scare tactics about narrow streets turning into arterials are silly. As Thomas says, we live in a city. You seem to want to put a suburban bubble around your neighborhood, while calling those of us who resist the selfish ones.
You’re going to lose on this one. Move on.
It is only a matter of time before 45th and 50th become one-way. Hopefully, 45th will be Westbound and 50th will be Eastbound.
“So, something is skewed in the responses.”
Or, perhaps something was skewed in your “Seattle night out” responses – or your ability to register all opinions, even those disagreeing with yours, with equal weight.
I thought all these new people moving to Seattle were car-less, lol… I can only speak for myself when I say I resent all the social engineering being foisted on us in the name of “quality of life”. As one poster said, we live in a city, deal with it. There are cars, there are bicycles, there is a not great transit system; it is what it is. Trying to restrict movement in some areas by means of traffic circles or speed bumps, okay, but physically blocking access is unacceptable.
I’m starting to buy into this “war on cars” mentality. Having an ice cream joint steal two perfectly good parking spots on a major street in a major shopping area just so a couple folks can sit there eating ice cream is a good example of this. Taking away parking and roadway access makes it even more difficult to get around so it’s reasonable to expect people to make alternate transit path choices (like through Tangletown). If someone is irritated enough by the gridlock and can make mass transit or a bicycle work for them, they’ll use those methods of transportation. Let nature take its course and stop trying to build physical barriers to “our” city and neighborhoods.
Ben, you sound like you want to lay out rules for drivers that don’t include access to your neighborhood unless they live there, so that you and your neighbors can enjoy a “…higher quality of life…”. That’s a little isolationist, don’t you think? The quality of life in my area of Wallingford went way down when the moronic people in charge of designating the Alcohol Impact Area boundaries put its western boundary at Latona, thereby supplying us with an endless supply of drunks (and all their attendant very undesirable behaviors) making their way up 50th to the 7-11 and 50th Street Market to get their fortified booze. So, like one poster listed above, if you prevent traffic from entering the various paths of least resistance, you will just push the problem elsewhere, as the U-District’s sodden brotherhood has now become Wallingford’s problem.
Eric: My street also experiences higher volumes when 50th gets congested but not every day. I also very much appreciate my slow but non congested access to I 5, south of 50th.
Re I5 traffic, its my understanding that volumes across the ship canal bridge havent changed much. Hence, reacting to the implications that it had. It really cant go up due to being at capacity.
There are no easy solutions to this. Almost all make things worse for someone else.
This solutions seems to come at the expense of those of us in the neighborhood. I live right off 5th and this solution forces me way out of my way to access I-5 or the U-district. When I commute to Ballard via the Burke-Gilman, it also forces me to climb the hill up to Thackery when otherwise I’d head straight south and down the hill. If people coming off I-5 are hopping the curb, then build a 3 foot curb. There just isn’t enough justification to limit so much flow.
I also don’t agree with the proposed change on 5th. What I would suggest though would be to build-up the existing island between 5th and the southbound exit off I-5 to force traffic to 50th like it’s already is intended to do (another SDOT failure).
Please be aware that 52nd & 54th have just as much cut through traffic as the other streets, they just cut over to the other streets.
And as far as I-5 traffic, (another WDOT failure) for some reason it can’t be figured out that left side on/off ramps, and bottle necking lanes slow traffic.
Steve
Lisa, I never said anything about who can access a neighborhood. I said we should encourage limited driving on residential streets. The loss of quiet residential streets is a much bigger problem in my opinion that traffic on arterials. Our current street layout is not a natural phenomenon or an inalienable right, people decided to build it one way. We can and should change it if that improves our lives.
Skewing the results? Bingo! The difference between this and the comments section of, say, the online Seattle Times, is only a matter of degree. I don’t know if there are good ways to poll a neighborhood, but this unfortunately isn’t one of them.
Ben, when you say “Cars should only travel on neighborhood streets for the first and last few blocks of a journey.”, that indicates to me only people who live in that neighborhood should be allowed. Perhaps I have misinterpreted? But I’m trying to figure out who else would be in the “…first and last few blocks of a journey…” other than those people who live in those last few blocks.
I also think this is a bad idea. I live on 51st and I can’t imagine the backup just to get on Latona to get to the light if everyone has to get on Latona to access I 5 or the Univeristy District. I would have to go down to Meridian to get to a light and who says that this would not now be clogged….
Bethesda, southbound Meridian is already backed up 2 blocks during rush hour.
Steve
“Cheater?” The definition of “cheater” is an individual of above average intelligence able to find a different time to be on the road, and a different and legal route upon which to drive, in order to avoid sitting in a stop-and-go line of vehicles being driven by traffic morons and whiners.
When asked how to eliminate traffic congestion in Seattle, Google recommends all traffic morons and whiners leave Seattle and move to Yakima where, incidentally, I understand the street price of “medicine” is cheaper than Seattle.
To be clear, no one would really have to get on Latona. You can get to N 50th however you like, but to get to 5th N, everyone would have to be on N 50th. That’s how I understand it, correct me if I’m wrong. Assuming that’s the primary bottleneck, and assuming that bottleneck is managed efficiently, then you’re all collectively going to get through there just as fast. You just don’t have the option to take a back road through the neighborhood to get to the front of the line.
Why not take a residential short cut? Well, these streets aren’t designed to support heavy traffic flows. They’re narrow and lined with parked cars, they don’t have signaled intersections, people are pulling out of driveways, etc. We go crazy when a kid gets hit on Stone, but think it’s fine for traffic to pour through residential neighborhoods to avoid the stop lights on the arterial a block away?
I’ve never commented on this site, but feel compelled to if this proposal is an actual possibility. Whoever came up with this obviously does not live in Tangletown. I do and must give my strong opposition to this, agreeing with Bythesea, runararo and Doug. It seems to me all this would do (at least for us in Tangletown) would create a huge backup on Latona, which I’m already concerned about as far as safety for cyclists and strollers and kids walking to school. Please don’t make this change.
The only streets that would see less traffic from this would be between Latona & 5th, and even then not all the residents on these streets would benefit from it.
Steve
I live on one of the streets you are talking about between Lattona and fifth Avenue. I hate this idea. Our street, 54th, does get neighborhood cut through, but I don’t see people speeding and the traffic does not seem that bad for a city neighborhood street. I don’t think it’s reasonable to stop people from trying alternate route to get where they are going. I cut through the neighborhood to get to my house from Green Lake Way because it makes sense. I think others are entitled to do this too. Furthermore, it would be extremely inconvenient to restrict neighborhood access to the U district and I-5 via fifth Avenue cut off.
E30, can you explain your thinking there? You believe people would take a parallel street, to get stuck at a light waiting to turn from Latona on to 50th, rather than just take 50th all the way from Green Lake Way?
If that’s true, then sure, it wouldn’t really achieve the desired effect, and maybe there would be huge backups on Latona. But it seems more likely that these “individuals of higher than average intelligence” would go back to using the arterial, because routing that shortcut to Latona & 50th would take the advantage out of it. They wouldn’t be filtering through the residential streets, and they wouldn’t be backed up on Latona.
Sounds like I’m the odd man out, but I like this proposal.
My perspective may be different because I live on 51st, which I think bears the brunt of people using a residential street as an arterial, and because I don’t use the residential streets to get to I-5. I drive to the arterials and take those to get where I am going since that’s what they are for. The residential streets, as the name implies, are primarily meant for residents to get to their places of residence.
I’m clearly in the minority here, but I just thought I’d throw in my perspective.
I live here, I take I-5 every day, getting on at 50th and 5th. Fifth is far from backed up during a.m. rush hour, and having cars from the neighborhood get on there relieves a bit of the Ballard/Fremont backup on 50th. The only “cheaters” are eastbound folks on 50th who make a quick right turn on the yellow and protrude into the intersection, blocking those of us trying to cross 50th on 5th–but it’s not too bad even then.
I don’t like this proposal, it will make everything 100 times worse. I take these routes all the time and I live in the neighborhood. The light at Latona and 50th is always slow and traffic is sometimes so backed up that you can’t turn. So I sit through a couple cycles. Not sure why you are calling this a “cheat route”.
Donn,
During rush hour, east & westbound traffic floods east & westbound streets and also the north & southbound streets trying to avoid backed-up traffic. This isn’t just a eastbound rush hour problem, the westbound rush hour traffic is just as bad at the other end. Residential street traffic dramatically increased when 50th St compacity was severely reduced a few years ago. (putting a cork in 45th didn’t help either) The 2-way left turn lane was just an all around bad fix for 50th. I’m not saying there’s not an issue, and that some changes could be made to help relieve residential street cut-through. I just don’t see this fixing anything substantial, other than spending a bunch of money for a very few people.
Steve
OK, but this is with the present access to 5th N. They try to avoid traffic on 50th, and they succeed because they can get around it via 5th.
Take that away, route them through Latona & 50th, and they will fail to get ahead of the 50th traffic, so they won’t do it any more. That’s the theory. Will it really still be faster even going through Latona & 50th, is that what you think? The other theoretical prediction is that throughput on 50th will improve, because the traffic on 50th won’t have to wait for the cheaters.
SDOT will look at the traffic impact themselves, and I’m sure they won’t be interested if it doesn’t look like it will work. The real question is whether anyone cares, and to find out I think you would have to ask residents.
I think this is a great partial solution. I live on 51st which has become a major arterial in the last few years, and the circles don’t always slow things down to a safe level. However being closer to GreenLake way, I am not so sure this solves the entire problem as cars will still cut through and use the Meridian and Latona lights to get back onto 50th, closer to the Freeway.
I vote no.
The problem isn’t the cut throughs in front of our houses. The problem is the speed at which people drive through non artilerials especially but certainly not limited to delivery trucks and late parents dropping off kids. A 30 mile per hour speed limit on non artilerials is ridiculous. Non arterials should be 20 mph and non arterials with only one lane of traffic should be no more than 15 but probably 10. Enforcement would result in revenue for the city and it would encourage use of arterials.
This is not a good solution. I live in Tangletown and take this exact route amost every day. I don’t try to take the 50th/Latona intersection because the traffic (currently) is so backed up on 50th that I can wait a couple of lights to even get on 50th (coming south on Latona, attempting to take a left on 50th). If this were implemented, my guess is that it would be much worse trying to even get on 50th from Latona.
Agree with posts on BETTER EAST + WEST OPTIONS. Speed bumps through neighborhoods for east and west access on both sides of 50th would be a great solution also. Not sure viability, but if 50th /Green Lake Way intersection light was shorter facilitated by a pedestrian bridge may keep the flow moving also. The road diet 50th and Stone Way / Green Lake Ways underwent has made the cut through increase significantly.
So in order to get to the UW or the 45th St. onramp HOV lanes, we would no longer be able to use 5th Ave.? I’m still not understanding how crossing 50th at 5th (for 20+ years) makes me a “cheater”? It’s a legitimate intersection, isn’t it? The “concrete barrier” we are supposedly crossing is farther north. I guess this is a YIMBY–those of us who live near the noise and pollution of the freeway at least get the benefit of relatively easy access.
This is the worse proposal ever. The only thing it will car is fatal accidents but adding a concrete barrier where it doesn’t belong.
I find it depressing that the vast majority of commenters here only consider one many uses of our streets.
Ben, the key word is “street”. Streets are for cars and bikes and they belong to everyone. A street is a transportation device and shouldn’t be considered a playground, a parklet, a pedestrian-only walking mall, etc. Admittedly, they are getting harder to use, but Seattle seems to be promoting high density population growth, so this is how it is.
Cars, bikes, roller skaters, dogs, people walking around. I wouldn’t recommend strolling around too much in N 50th between Green Lake Way and 5th N, but in a residential area with narrow streets and uncontrolled intersections, you have to take into consideration that foot traffic includes dogs and kids and isn’t confined to signaled crosswalks. 15mph speed suggested above is arguably a little on the fast side, depending on conditions.
I am very opposed to this proposal. I deliberately bought a home near 5th Ave NE for easy access to I-5. If I understand this proposal correctly, it would prevent me from driving down 5th Ave NE to I-5, something I do every single day. Am I correct that it would force those of us who live adjacent to 5th Ave NE to turn up the hill, go to Latona Ave then to 50th NE? That is considerably out of my way and would only seem to make traffic worse, without anything to make it better. Yikes! Yes, the intersection is cumbersome when traffic exiting I-5 and cars going south on 5th Ave NE merge but it is manageable.
I would suggest that perhaps the people driving eastbound on 50th be prohibited from making a right turn on red onto 50th Ave NE but that would make the back up on 50th even worse so it wouldn’t help any more than funneling everyone on to 50th.
Is cut-through traffic itself really a problem in search of a solution? I have no problem with bikes and cars using the street I live on (or 5th Ave NE) – I just wish they would slow down because it is a narrower street, not an arterial. I would support traffic calmers for reduced speed.
I am very opposed to this proposal.
I vote no here for a number of reasons.
1) No clear problem definition — this notion of Tangletown “cut-throughs” is a really poor definition. It’s loaded with personal preference that probably isn’t important if you don’t live here.
2) Poor solution — think a barrier on 5th Ave NE is going to correct the “problem”? Traffic is like water; it will spill into other areas.
3) No supporting data — only personal opinion. (I don’t doubt the motivation, but there simply is no data to understand the breadth and depth of people this affects.)
Want to fix the problem? Focus on the cause, not the symptoms.
I am wondering how the proposed concrete barriers will impact emergency vehicles responding to calls for help in the neighborhood. And, by the way, trying to change human behavior by putting up obstructions doesn’t sound logical to me.
I live east of Latona and use 5th NE. The number of vehement responses surprises me, but I get why… This proposal screws tangletown residents who use this route, too. It sounds like you’d be pretty stupid to try turning left onto 50th if you live north of it, anywhere in tangletown.
I have lived on Kensington since 1969. (I rode a horse on the un-paved but graded I-5 from Seattle to Everett, to put things in perspective; long-term view!) Me? I have always worked at finding non-busy ways to get where I am driving. I walked 2.4 miles to work and school both back and forth every day and did not drive for many good reasons. For those of us IN the neighborhood, our little “back door” ways to get where we are going, usually slower but steadier especially in recent years, remain a treasure. We have so few treasures left! I am against this proposal for the impact it would have on OUR particular neighborhood. I can understand others trying to find their own treasurers. It is exceedingly difficult to drive anywhere, anymore; yes, the cost of city living.
As someone who lives in the area with a young child, I don’t think the proposed barrier is the correct solution. There are many local residents who would have to back track to get onto I5 and the back up for south bound traffic at the 50th and Latona light would be pretty bad (and many people would still drive East all the way to Latona only being limited for the last block of the “cut through”). I think slow down measures such as speed bumps along the E/W streets would be better solutions that would hopefully discourage nonresidents from cutting through, while still allowing neighborhood locals the use of their streets.
Would someone please explain how the road diet on Green Lake Way NE is being perceived as increasing neighborhood cut-through traffic? What has changed on that street that is incentivizing travel on neighborhood streets instead of the arterial streets to reach I-5?
The city does not install speed bumps unless you get a speed gun and catch a substantial number of people going over 30 MPH. Beyond that, police are not going to help- they don’t seem to even enforce carpool entrances or blowing red lights, much less preventing car prowls.
To use laineyk’s analogy, we must close our back door if we want to stop people coming in our front door. SDOT’s policy is that through traffic uses arterials, and local traffic uses residential streets, so they are open to studying the possibility of closing the back door since it uses residential streets.
I appreciate the honesty of people that say they care more about keeping the back door open than they care about preventing cut through traffic. I have less patience for people that want to have their cake and eat it too, it’s just not realistic. Either cutting through our neighborhood helps people bypass the 50th backup or it doesn’t, and that decides whether people cut through.
Thought [1] 20 years ago, my partners Uncle stated that he and the others who designed I-5, NEVER designed it to handel the amount of traffic flowing on it at that time.
Thought [2] regarding the 50th N and 5th Ave N intersection. I use that intersection frequently, most of the time to turn right, some of the time to turn left, and occasionally to get back onto I-5 or continue to 45th. I’m not a commuter, and live on Sunnyside 8 houses south of 50th. Thirty years ago, NO one drove on 50th relative to todays traffic. To call people “cheaters”, I hope is a bit “tongue and cheek”. One can only cheat if there are rules, and I have yet to see a set of rules that say that I am restricted from driving through Tangletown.
Sunnyside is as “bad” as 51st 52nd and 53rd for its flow of frustrated drivers. Thinking they can get to the other East/West bound street, [45th or 50th] and therefore wherever they are going , 5th and I-5 I suspect, they race North or south
to make up “lost time”.
It is the age we live in, it is the lack of an adiquate route out of Ballard, and will only increase in volume. Eventually, drivers headed to I-5 will figure out that they can
access 5th off of 65th exiting from GLW or Woodlawn. So when those three streets are at capacity, your home value should have increased astronomically, you will be able to sell, and move to South America.
SRK: The argument is that the turn lane makes it easier for cars to turn left onto 51st through 54th, plus reduced throughput at the intersection lengthens backups and pushes people onto side streets.
Charles: “Cheat” is meant to refer to people who cut ahead in line by using residential streets, not to local traffic using that pathway. Having said that, it shouldn’t be in there either way- tongue and cheek doesn’t belong in a proposal like this. I updated the proposal to cut out the wording.
Well I think I am going to be in the minority here too. Last year, with some parents we discussed the Crosswalk with Seattle schools @ 56th and 1st and how dangerous it is walking kids too McDonald Elementary. (Which amazingly in 57 comments above I just read not one comment discussed the fact that an Elementary school all around these road and if you go to the schools website you can see they are dealing with this issue and this is a school zone) The city added a cone in the middle of the intersection. It has not done much. (Ironically the roundabout there actually lowers pedestrian visibility) I too don’t want to lose my quick access, maybe more visible signs should be placed that say Local only on the areas where cutout turn in. Also and this is would so helpful with all the 5 way intersections on Greenlake way. How about round about instead of stop lights. And lastly look at Ballard, growing fast. How do they get to the freeway. Maybe once Mercer is fixed it will help. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Seattle,+WA+98105/@47.669366,-122.328248,3a,75y,94.68h,67.81t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1skdClPOhrq688YL7bHI7V4Q!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x5490145d481aa23b:0x506768432856e21!6m1!1e1
A poorly-thought-out idea. As always, the devil is in the details.
1. Improving the barrier keeping cars from turning from the freeway exit ONTO 51st is likely the only part of this which makes sense
2. Unless 51st is made one-way WESTBOUND, which will annoy nearly everybody, EASTBOUND traffic from Latona down to 5th Avenue will predominate. If that is NOT an option, then those who wish to get to 5th Avenue will simply switch to 54th or 56th as a route to get there.
3. If all traffic would be forced onto Latona, SOUTHBOUND, to turn East and get on the freeway that way, there would be a long line of traffic on Latona, prohibiting people traveling EASTBOUND from 51st, 52nd, 53rd, 54th, and likely 55th and 56th streets from getting on Latona themselves.
4. The source of this suggested project is not mentioned, nor are the numbers of people who feel they are inconvenienced by the status quo.
5. Who says people “race” along these streets to get to I-5?
6. Terms like “cutting in line” are used, for a process which the DOT has felt quite satisfactory for many years.
I live 1.5 blocks from this proposed barrier and would oppose it. This is how I, and all of my neighbors who live on or near the slope get on to I-5 and now this would cause us to back up Latona and onto 51st and 52nd, where we would wait to get in the slow line down Latona.
This “cheat” actually alleviates congestion because we are not forced on to 50th, that only has two lanes for most of the day, and it is used by the thousands who live in Tangletown.
Are those who live on 51st, etc, united in concern about “cut-through” traffic, and in backing this solution? I’m hearing mixed reviews from the residents just in this forum. Getting a traffic circle or speed bumps requires agreement from a percentage of those in the area affected; I would assume this project would require the same, if not a higher, level of buy-in. It should not be in contention for funding until it has been established as passing at least that qualification.
While I am not crazy about the occasional car speeding down 51st, where I live, I would hate to have this plan enacted. As others have written, this “cheat” has the overall effect of relieving congestion on 50th, which is the real problem. The concept of forcing traffic to arterials was the status quo in American suburbia between 1960 – 1990, and has since been found to be an utter failure for many reasons, not least of which is the resulting 6 lane arterials.
Part of the reason the urban neighborhoods of Seattle work is because the 100-year old grid of streets accommodates various routes between A & B. Please don’t take that away.
Why should the the population around Latona between 50th and 65th be forced onto 50th?! How does that possibly make anything better?! The drivers upstream on 50th certainly wouldn’t be any better off.
I take the “cheat” every morning in the middle of rush hour. I get in the second lane like I’m “supposed to” for I-5, and am across I-5 in no more than 2 light cycles. Sometimes people from the third lane merge into the cue after 50th when a car in lane 2 turns left onto 50th. And you know what? It is FINE.
If there’s an effective way to slow down the speeders on 51st, 53rd, etc. (i.e., speed bumps, etc.) I could get behind that. But this plan just doesn’t make any sense.
As one who lives on NE 51st (on the same block as Allen above) and uses the turn onto 5th to get on the freeway on a daily basis, I think this proposal is lousy. I don’t see the problem that it is trying to address and would make the traffic worse on 50th. For me it avoids having to cut into line when I turn left on 50th. I think it also alleviates traffic on 50th and Latona (which already backs up in the morning). I think the barrier to stop people from turning onto 51st could be improved, without the rest of the of the proposal. It also makes ti much more difficult to get across the freeway into the University District, which is also a very frequent trip for me.
Cheaters, hmm. The only “cheating” here is bogus rhetoric. Traffic is not a moral issue. There are rules, some enforceable and some not, and there are people who follow the rules and there are some who don’t. No helping any of that. Those who can’t stand “cheaters” in traffic should stay home.
On the other hand, people speeding through residential neighborhoods is a real problem. Those of us who live in the area north and west of 50th and I-5 would like to see people slow down when driving through our neighborhood, but I for one don’t begrudge people finding an alternative route when 50th is such a cluster. (And I don’t ever drive on 45th, period.) Those who think residential streets were conceived by God as either arterial or local access forget that people used to walk and push prams and apple carts in them and that similar arguments raged when those filthy, noisy, dangerous automobiles started appearing…in the middle of the road!!
This is a brainsmart idea but it has no mandate. It would make more sense to install chicanes on 51st, 56th, etc. It’s not a difficult process…a few mornings sitting outside with a speed gun, then present the data to the city. The issue there is that some local street parking disappears, but that’s for us neighbors to worry about.
I live on one of the streets between Latona and 5th. I tire of people speeding down the hill on their way to work in the morning. Even on the weekends during the day I fear for my childrens safety because of the cars that use our street as a runway to launch onto 5th on the way to I-5. I want my street to be one way going towards Latona. I don’t want to wait until someone kills my kid.
We asked the city if we could put some sort of speed bump or traffic revision but they said it wasn’t appropriate due to the grade.
Personally, I would like to see the installation of raingardens and bioswales on the slope from Latona to 5th. These could serve a combined service of slowing traffic and filtering rainwater so 5th Ave doesn’t turn into a lake in the rainy season.
Would also decrease available parking. Maybe this should be next year’s project…
If it takes away parking, forget it! Rain gardens and bioswales are lovely, but they need to work within the space parameters available. I’ll happily wade out to my car if my choice is losing parking for a bioswale.
runyararo’s idea could help with the Lake Union water quality problem discuses in the “Environmental Restoration of Waterway 22” article.
http://www.wallyhood.org/2015/03/47384/#comments
I vote no. Instead, I think they need to undo the ludicrous “road diet” on Greenlake way between the golf course and 50th st. The backups this is causing are horrendous and I can’t see that it has helped anything except for the bike lanes. Reroute the bikes through the parking lot of the playfields and bring back 2 lanes in each direction for this small section.
AMEN! That thing is ridiculous!
In agreement, Tobin! Wish 50th could be un-road dieted, too.
Traffic runs fine along Greenlake Way. Aren’t the back-ups due to the stoplight at 50th, and not the road diet?
The issue is that the road diet goes all the way to the stoplight at 50th, impacting throughput there. It used to be that 2 lanes of traffic could queue up to go through the intersection in each direction, and now only 1 lane can queue up on GLW southbound or Stone northbound. In addition, the empty turn lane is like an invitation to people to turn into Tangletown when the backup gets bad.
Fixing things isn’t easy though, as restoration of 2 lane queuing at the light requires making things less safe and straightforward for people on bikes. Welcome to mode wars!
I live on Ne 53rd between Latona & 5th Ave NE. I think the proposal is a TERRIBLE idea. It will force more traffic onto NE 45th st., which is already fairly maxed out most of the time. It will no longer be an option to turn left onto NE 50th from 5th AVE NE for access to the U District, or I-5 North. It will greatly increase traffic volume and backups on Latona AVE NE, which would likely increase the risk of kids getting hit while attempting to cross streets to get to McDonald School.
My perception is that a significant amount of the traffic that “cuts through” are really people who live in the general area that use the streets from 51st – 60th to avoid NE 50th. Traffic has definitely increased w/ McDonald School re-opening several years ago.
I also concur that the GreenLake Way road diet has increased traffic, and is a disaster. However, I haven’t seen many people “speeding” down our streets, They’re simply too narrow for that. I haven’t feared for my kids safety except for crossing Latona Ave NE, when a significant number of cars simply ignore the marked crosswalks.
Looking at the proposed map the “new workaround” will be to go down 5th, cross 50th , turn right on 47th, right on 4th, then right 50th. People will always gravitate to another back route. How will residents of that route react to the traffic that is now flowing on their previously quiet streets?
Is there any data to back up that this proposal won’t cause more risk / disruption that the status quo, or is it based solely on a perception that the “cut-throughs” are causing accidents or serious safety issues that can be offset by increasing traffic on other streets?
I just don’t see that this proposal will solve more issues than it creates. For anyone living between Meridian and 5th Ave NE and between NE 50th & 60th Sts. it will likely increase the amount of time it takes you to get to the U-District, or access I-5 south or north order to solve something that as a resident of the neighborhood for 15 years have never seemed like a significant issue to me.
I do not like this proposal for the reasons many here have stated but also do agree with what Ben stated- about the intent to be helpful and am glad to see such healthy debate online!
“I don’t have the skills or knowledge to express an option on whether this proposal will achieve the desired results or what other consequences will be. I suspect most other commenters are just as unqualified as I am.
As a Wallingford resident I can express an opinion of our values therefore I do support the intent of this proposal. People going to and from the freeway should be on arterials. Cars should only travel on neighborhood streets for the first and last few blocks of a journey. This frees the streets for all sorts of other of higher quality of life uses such being a pleasant walkway, a gardens and a playground. Spending some extra time on our arterials when we choose to travel by car is a price worth paying for such things.”
Perhaps we put resources into education- Drive carefully, thoughtfully and practice fairness. Also public transportation options-better for all Earths inhabitants. The one way streets on 50th and 45th might also be a fair fix. And please if you are not Vegan , Go Vegan. Our planet cannot sustain the traditional western diet and we know for certain that humans can thrive on a well planned plant based diet as recommended by the ADA and many medical professionals now warn against the dangers of animal products in our diets. But more than this- for justice. We do not need to exploit the most vulnerable among us. If we claim to take seriously the ethics of nonviolence and justice then we must give equal consideration to non human animals as sentient beings- animals are not things. We all know this to be true. They have central nervous systems like us! And though we may not know the exact placement as to where to draw the line- We can draw a line at sentience as to who we include in the moral community. We should. Veganism is the abolition of animal slavery. All oppressions intersect. Thanks for letting me share!
First, I wonder why 54th coming off Green Lake Way seems to persistently be left off the list of cut-throughs between 50th and 56th – it is the SINGLE street to have NO roundabouts between Green Lake and Meridian, and certainly for those of us living there seems to be favored by non-residents for that reason. I do think 51st is more abused and probably 56th even with the recent signs added.
I can’t support this proposal for two reasons: (1) it seems to clearly penalize residents that live along I-5; (2) more importantly, I don’t think it will have the desired effect of reducing cut-through traffic except from Latona east to 5th, so would need the Latona light dynamics changed to allow for greater traffic without Green Lake Way style backups.
And to those that are wondering what the GLW road diet did to make cut-through traffic worse: it put 50th St left-turn and right turn cars headed south on GLW in a single queue instead of two lanes so now cars headed in opposite directions are lined up behind each other instead of moving in parallel. This is why GLW southbound is now backed up nearly to the golf course during rush hour and weekends and why more cars are using 54th and 53rd than ever before.
Fools should get on at Ravenna Blvd. turning left from glw onto 50th is just daft during rush hour. Maybe we need a light at the pitch and putt so those folks can detour to the 65th arterial.
I think it’s time to propose a tunnel from Ballard to I-5 and we can get all of our neighborhoods back!
Laurie brings up a good point about qualifications. We all reacted to this proposal based on our predictions of what it would do, and it looks to me like those predictions were different. I assume SDOT analysis would use tested traffic models and reasonably good data about traffic volumes, and the lights at Latona, 5th etc. That might make a more productive starting point for discussion, rather than have the traffic impacts analyzed by a few readers who don’t have the data or qualifications to do it.
I still say “no”. So many of the SDOT “qualified experts” don’t live in the areas they are analyzing and in this case, I think we who live here know better.
While people may not be SDOT qualified, I’m sure most of the predictions are based on “what I would do if this change happened”, and might be more accurate than an SDOT study. I’ve noticed in my own area that SDOT studies don’t make sense. They put in those car counting cables across a couple streets 2 weeks before school started. Made changes based on that data, and then of course school started and it’s been a traffic nightmare ever since.
I wish I had read this when it was originally posted. I live on NE 51st St at the corner of 5th NE, literally 50 feet from the proposed barriers. Yes, plenty of traffic “cheats” and cuts through the neighborhood rather than sit through the snarl that is the 50th St on/off ramps during rush hour. There is a pretty constant stream of cars past my house in the morning and afternoon. While a little bothersome, I don’t really see this as a problem. The biggest problem is those cars that are jumping over or going around the short curb from the southbound I-5 off ramp and cutting up our street to get around the light. This is especially bad in the summer, when westbound 50th backs up from the interstate to the zoo. The problem is that our little street is only wide enough for one car to pass, and when that uphill traffic meets the downhill traffic there is no where to go. I would really love for a proper barrier to be put up to force traffic exiting the interstate through to the light, but the second barrier that prevents me from accessing eastbound 50th street and both of the freeway on-ramps without battling downhill traffic to go around the light at Latona would be ridiculous for the PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY LIVE HERE. I think it’s cute that folks who live in Tangletown would happily inconvenience the home owners closer to the freeway to limit traffic in their stretch of the neighborhood.
Justin, I just read your comment and was especially taken with your last sentence. I read it and smiled … where have you been? This entire hill has just exploded with cars everywhere! Our “alleys” as a friend of mine calls them … have been essentially one way for a long time! I know people on the E-W streets from Latona to the freeway have seen increased numbers, especially these last couple of years. I am not picking on you or disagreeing … this entire hill sure is crowded. Especially the E-W, and the few more-major N-S. Please accept this post in the spirit it was written, which is a “where have you been? [grin]” kind of a comment from me. Alas, almost all the ‘stretches of the neighborhood’ are a crowded, impossible mess. Unless one is really really lucky.
Oh, I’ve been here, seeing things get more and more crowded for years. I guess I just consider congestion part and parcel to life in an urban environment. It happens, and it’s only going to get worse as density grows to the west of us. There are only so many routes in and out. If I wanted to make sure that I didn’t have to deal with traffic on my street I would have purchased a home in a cul de sac in the burbs someplace years ago. I think there are some things that could improve some of the mess, but this solution seems like one that unintentionally punishes (or at least further inconveniences) the residents who happen to have the misfortune of a view of the freeway from their kitchen window. I don’t see this proposal as anything malicious, just a proposal of which all of the pros and cons for everyone it impacts were not fully weighed. There is no solution that makes everyone happy. I love our neighborhood and I there isn’t really anywhere I’d rather live, warts and all.
So very true. There are just a lot of people who are living here and there is really no way of trying to tap it off because it will just squeeze out someplace else. I recall when they started with metered ramps and that changed the flow here. I am aware that now with all of the traffic on I 5 that even without the metered ramps there would be a backup, but at the time it was started we didn’t have any backup problem. We just pushed our way onto the freeway in front of all of those suburb dwellers (smile).
I prefer the road diet on 50th and Greenlake Way because it slows down the cars and trucks that speeded there and I can take a left turn without creating a backup of unhappy drivers or cross the street without having to walk blocks to get to a light.
Love the new signs on 51st reminding people to drive slowly!